Payroll Perspectives - James Petrella, The Breakthrough Office
Summary
James Petrella reflects on his career journey from McDonald's into payroll management, including his experience in both in-house and outsourced payroll. He discusses how working across different organisations and industries helped develop the problem-solving, planning and leadership skills required to progress into management.
Moving from payroll processing into leadership requires a shift in focus. James explains how his responsibilities have evolved from managing individual tasks to overseeing people, processes, planning and the strategic direction of the payroll function, while maintaining a strong connection to the work being delivered.
Working exclusively with not-for-profit organisations at The Breakthrough Office has reinforced the importance of purpose in James's career. He shares how supporting the financial and payroll operations of community organisations allows their teams to concentrate on the people and causes they serve.
James discusses the importance of curiosity, knowledge sharing and investing in the next generation of payroll professionals. As experienced practitioners approach retirement, he believes organisations need to place greater emphasis on transferring expertise, developing emerging talent and reducing their reliance on individuals who hold critical payroll knowledge.
Beyond the pay run: People, purpose and payroll leadership
Payroll is often measured by what happens at the end of a pay cycle. Were employees paid correctly? Were deadlines met? Were there any errors?
For James Petrella, Payroll Manager at The Breakthrough Office, those outcomes are important, but they represent only part of what makes a successful payroll function.
Having started his career at McDonald's before progressing into payroll through an unexpected opportunity, James has built experience across in-house processing, outsourced payroll and team leadership. Along the way, his understanding of the profession has evolved from managing individual transactions to recognising the importance of planning, developing people and building processes that support long-term success.
Now working exclusively with not-for-profit organisations, James has also developed a strong appreciation for the impact that reliable payroll and financial operations can have on organisations working to make a difference in their communities.
In Season 2, Episode 6 of Payroll Perspectives, James joins Shawny Smith to discuss his transition into payroll management, the skills gained through outsourced payroll and why curiosity is one of the most valuable qualities a payroll professional can develop. They also explore the importance of transferring knowledge to the next generation, the changing expectations of payroll leaders and why the people behind every pay packet should never be overlooked.
Episode transcript
Shawny: Hi, James, how are you going?
James: All right. Enjoying the sunshine that doesn't exist or existed five seconds ago and changed.
Shawny: Being in Melbourne, I know the weather is constantly changing. You might get a chunk of the midday that might have a bit of sun and enjoyment out there, but yeah, then you've got the cold mornings and evenings still. Fingers crossed summer will meet us soon.
James: Absolutely. I don't really get to see those middays. It's normally crunch time middays and early morning.
From McDonald’s to payroll
Shawny: I know it's usually when we're inside and we can just see out the window, but anyway, thank you so much for joining me for Payroll Perspectives podcast. This is episode six. Look, we usually just start off with a bit of an introduction. Obviously I've known you for five or so years now, but why don't you tell people a little bit about you and sort of your career history?
James: Yeah, absolutely. So I started out back in the Macca's days, starting when I was 14 and nine months going through the career ladder, moving through crew trainer and wanting to achieve the world whilst also studying accounting and business management to make sure that I could really start to see the operational side of a business and start to work in that area. But then as things often happen in payroll, I tumbled into the opportunity.
I'm pretty sure every single time we've asked that or will ask anyone, they will say I did not intentionally move into payroll, but jumping into payroll was a natural progression for me. I really found my footing, moved through to McDonald's office, then to an outsourced payroll company. Now I'm Payroll Manager at The Breakthrough Office, an outsourced accounting firm working exclusively with the not-for-profit sector.
Shawny: Amazing. And I think too from what, 2020 until now, that's sort of your career payroll. So it's amazing that you've been able to reach that payroll manager title in that time. And yes, you are correct, a lot of people do have that answer that they fall into payroll again. It is happening more and more now that people are sort of trying to reach and step into that career and be very intentional with it.
But from most people that I speak to, yeah, it's something that you get experience or you get some kind of exposure or experience in and then you just fall in love with it from there. Look, you're now a payroll manager. Can you take us back to the beginning? How did you actually get the opportunity? Obviously you moved through a few roles while at McDonald's, but was it an internal offering that sort of came to you or did you apply?
James: Yeah. So initially what happened was I applied to be an assistant accountant at McDonald's and as I hadn't completed my degree yet, I came second in the job interview, which isn't a great place to come. You're the first loser! But what that meant was my interest was registered and an opportunity came up in the payroll space. At the time, there weren't any payroll offices in Melbourne. It was all operating out of the Central Coast. So it was not only a new opportunity to jump into the payroll space, but also my first time working remotely for a finance team.
That meant it was a challenge for them and a challenge for me. But as I do with most things, I dove in head first, wanting to make the most of it all. I still remember the call to this day. It was not in the most common place, it was actually in the bins area on a shift. I was standing there with the smelly rubbish behind me, taking a call about an opportunity.
Shawny: They were basically saying, 'Step away from the rubbish and join us at head office!'
James: I sprinted, sprinted towards it.
Shawny: That's amazing, honestly. And at the time you were probably thinking this is your first step towards a finance career and then you've like, nah, payrolls where it's at.
James: Absolutely. It was jumping in. I always wanted to be an accountant and settle down into a nice role where I could help small organisations or larger organisations with their jargon that they'd have to filter through and really help and provide that impact to make their life that little bit easier. I found that accounting offered that, but so did payroll, plus so much more.
Finding the right career opportunity
Shawny: Yeah, and you probably won't believe me, but when I was studying at university I also did accounting, and I also majored in HR. So when I got the job as a recruiter, I kind of tell people I kind of fell into it as well. I didn't really know what I was getting myself into or if it would be a long-term career. But stuck with it ever since then and love it. In some industries, you just kind of fall into it, you fall in love and you just can't find this kind of unique blend elsewhere.
And that's why I've always enjoyed recruiting in payroll is because it's, it is just so unique and the passion that people have for it is so strong. Obviously when it comes to McDonald's, it was all internal shifts for you, but I know that you've experienced obviously direct company, but also through a recruitment agency. What was the experience like on both sides and what would you recommend to someone? Weighing up their, their options?
James: Yeah, when in the job market, it can be very overwhelming. There are so many different pieces of information you need to find and you need to identify what works for you and what works for the company. But the biggest thing I found when using a recruitment agency or when we work together was access to information. If you go on seek or employment hero recruitment or whatever software you use, you've got a job description and you've got the company website. We don't have a whole lot more information than that. Now.
We've all worked in the industry and seen how people write job descriptions. And I can tell you, and you can tell everyone listening that that is one of the most inaccurate pieces of information that a company can first draft because it doesn't capture the culture, it doesn't capture the information beyond the written description, and it doesn't capture the little things that you pick up.
So coming to a recruitment agency, what you get is at the end of the day you have a responsibility to not only place the right candidate, you have a responsibility to think about the longevity of that as well. So is it the right fit, is it the right skills? You can filter through all this information and not only save the company's time, but you save my time as well. So overall it comes down to the access of information.
Shawny: Yeah. I have always found that when people give feedback on the processes, you know, it's always been about the support and the information and the processes are highlighted more clearly. You usually know from an initial chat with, you know, me, how many steps are there actually going to be? Who am I meeting? Who are the key stakeholders? What, what does the job actually entail?
Because you're right, a PD only takes part of the story and sometimes that story is coming from someone in HR who's drafted this up that is possibly a little bit more out of touch to the payroll team directly. So yeah, I agree with what you're saying there. The access to information, the support and from both sides, you know, just trying to narrow down the pool and the time that it takes to get, to get it right.
James: Yeah, absolutely. And with the world of so much information, making sure you're concise, making the right decision and we have limited time in our day, so making sure we utilize that time with the right information is critical.
From processing to leading a team
Shawny: Obviously you've stepped up into payroll management relatively recently. You know, when you took that responsibility on what actually surprised you about that pivot between management and processing?
James: Yeah, it's definitely been an eye-opener and a different kind of challenge. Jumping into the payroll management space. You move from when you're a payroll processor. Your safe space is looking at your day-to-day, planning it out and making sure that you can get it done and all your tasks ticked off and assigned. But then when you're moving to a payroll manager role, your focus no longer becomes the day-to-day and the nitty gritty intricate details. You've got a team behind you to support you and get that done.
What you need to focus on are three key areas: people, processes and planning. So you're no longer focusing on those individual items. You've got the bigger picture. You've got to put the problem solving hat on and think about not only about an individual problem, but how that flows in and then planning and setting processes in place. But the other thing on top of that is the strategic direction of the organisation.
Where are we going to go in terms of our systems, in terms of our service offering and how are we going to elevate to the next step to meet either budget requirements, growth requirements, or just continuing to give us a great service? So it turns from a safe processing space to a future driven planning environment?
Shawny: Yeah, definitely. And I think a lot of people are surprised at how different it can be from their perception of management. Do you think that you were quite prepared for the move or do you think that there was a fair few elements that maybe surprised you about how different the role would be?
James: I think if I had have come straight from my early days of internal processing at McDonald's, it would have been quite a leap. One thing in the payroll industry, and especially when you're recruiting internal payroll and outsourced payroll are completely different spaces. Coming from an area of outsourced payroll, I was already acting as a payroll manager for an organisation, getting their details sorted and problem solving, solving and troubleshooting.
So having that outsourced experience really made sure that I could touch on different things that I may not be able to learn. But because I was working with different organisations in different industries, with different structures and different management levels, that prepared me to be able to jump into this role.
Purpose and payroll in the not-for-profit sector
Shawny: Yeah, I find a lot of people, if they've only had one sort of lot of experience, whether that be in-house or outsourced, they just don't have that full understanding on how different they can be. And you're right, it's prepared you in a different kind of way than if you had just been in in-house processing because you're, you do kind of have to take on this more Independent role where you have your own clients that you're in charge of and you really need to give that leadership and direction to them on these processes.
So yeah, I completely understand what you're saying. The other thing I wanted to touch on was obviously you're working for the breakthrough office, which is really clear sort of person, purpose and mission. Do you think this sort of carries through into you what your team does on a day-to-day?
James: Yeah, absolutely. Not only from a day-to-day basis in my own team, but from a whole organisational perspective. So for those who don't know The Breakthrough Office work in the not-for-profit space, supporting the backend needs all accounting, corporate governance and payroll requirements for not-for-profits. Now we embellish that in our day-to-day by only serving not-for-profits. We don't do any accounting services for any private companies. It's all in the not-for-profit sector. Not only by the actual physical work we do.
We bring that mission into the work we do, and we also teach it internally. We have a very young workforce and there's a specific reason for that. It's because we're building the accounting knowledge and payroll knowledge in the industry. We're not outsourcing overseas or to other outsourced companies. And we're keeping it all internal to grow the knowledge in this space. Also, we do have our weekly all ins. So every week we get the entire company together for 30 minutes.
Yes, that can sound like an expensive practice, but what it does is it means we get to put faces to the names that we're seeing come through. We also champion each other by giving our shout outs and making those little wins public knowledge. Because you don't know how much someone's role involves. And I'm sure as a recruiter you would know. People think you find someone looking for a job, then find them a job. Simple, right? But no, you have so many little things that you do, so many little wins that you don't necessarily get to share.
And these weekly all ins are just one way that we get to celebrate them. And the last thing that we do in the organisation is we remind ourselves about our values. So this year our values impact.
So creating an impact in the organisations we're working with, flourishing, so making sure not only the work we're doing is being completed, but being improved, then actually providing impact in organisations and then working together as a team, sharing that knowledge and really being resourceful in how we can not work to replace ourselves, but to work to be able to provide support even if we're not there. So, yes, I genuinely believe in the mission that we have at The Breakthrough Office because of the values and ways of working that we actually display.
Shawny: I think it's such an amazing thing too, to have a business like yours where obviously you need to be commercial, but your main focus is working and partnering with these not-for-profit. So it really does change the kind of atmosphere to other sort of similar businesses to yours that might have a variety of different clients from different industries and whatnot. It also makes you more specialist in that area. Right.
On what their needs are and what they're really looking at financial wise and what their reporting needs are and all these sorts of things I can say from my own experience. You know, I've worked in all different industries and especially early in my career, I did a lot of work with health organisations not-for-profit. So even the sense of the purpose comes through to me when I'm doing their recruitment, you know, getting really in depth into the missions and explaining that to candidates and sort of. Yeah. What kind of different culture and vibe that it brings as well.
So, yeah, and it sounds like you're really enjoying the role, the mission and everything. Can hear the passion that you have for the organisation and all the purpose there, which is, you know, also another thing that, you know, when you find a job that just, you know, brings you that kind of level of joy, that's something else that's a little bit extra special. So
The people behind the work
James: I'd love to draw on an experience from it that really drove home. We had one of our client gatherings which was a fundraising event. Now, it sounds like a fancy gala, but the theme was op shop-themed because part of their business, they operate an op shop. This was a homelessness and domestic violence shelter and we were there, they were presenting on different kinds of impact they've made in the community. And some individuals stood up in the crowd all around us and shared their stories.
Now, these people that stood up were people who had actually come through the organisation. Now, we'd seen their names before in invoices with prospects or different ways that we've helped provide accounting support. But really putting the face behind the name and one person is a person, not a number, really cemented just working this space for me because having that impact, I'm, not to brag, good at numbers and I understand payroll organisations that are trying to solve a problem in the community don't have that backend experience.
They have the passion and drive to be able to support others, but they don't have the understanding of STP requirements, Payday Super and different accounting functions. So being able to let them flourish in their important work and be able to take that burden from them and see the direct impact, that's what solved this role for me.
Career development starts with curiosity
Shawny: Feel like you said that so well. To have an organisation where their mission and purpose and their passions are so clear, to pull them away from that, to become experts in these areas, is not really fair to what they're trying to achieve and to themselves. So finding an organisation like this and someone like you that has that passion to help people, but in that kind of format is amazing.
And I guess we've spoken a little bit about the business and the organisation, but for people that you may work with in future, or just for anyone out there who might be sort of a couple of years into their payroll career thinking about how they start moving up, how they start developing themselves first further, what would you tell them to focus on? Or, you know, is there something that you wish someone had told you in your early career?
James: Yeah, absolutely. So the biggest thing in payroll industry or in any job are two words. Be curious if you hear something that you don't quite understand. And I do this in my day-to-day. If someone talks about a location on a map, oh, I went to Traralgon or Dargo. I don't nod my head and go, oh yeah, I've heard of that, when I clearly have not. I pull it up on the map and I look at where it is so that I can be invested in conversation.
And sometimes those conversations are happening with higher level payroll employees and you may not have a standing or want to jump in and interrupt, but use the resources around you. Oh, you spoke about Payday Super. What does that mean? Jump online, look at the ATO resources and become equipped just to be able to engage in future conversations. The other thing is implied knowledge is a killer. You might think, 'It's easy, all you need to do is log on to this system and go to this section.' think about it as everyone has a blank slate, because they do.
And if you impart that implied knowledge onto someone else, you are then giving that expectation that someone else can give implied knowledge to you and not fully explain themselves. So making sure you're curious, looking into things and grabbing different pieces of information, that's the best way to grow in this career. Not only that, is you get those small pieces and you may have no idea about salary packaging. You've heard about salary sacrifice and you've heard about ways to reduce your taxable income.
Now they're not directly linked, but you have information on something similar, then understanding that other piece of information becomes a whole lot easier. So that's it. Be curious, ask questions if you're not sure. Don't pretend to know. You will not grow in advance by making assumptions. Now it's 2026. You can't make assumptions in payroll because you need to be a professional. And at the end of the day, your work has immense impact. It's one of the only jobs where you might have 200 people a week looking at their payslip and checking the work you've directly done.
Shawny: That's so true. And I think we live in a world now where we both lucky and not because we have so much knowledge at our disposal. So the responsibility is on each individual to make sure that they're doing the right kind of research and have the right kind of knowledge. You know, taking initiative and being curious. You can't just rely on anything that's been given to you to be correct. And that's one of the biggest thing in payroll.
You know, that's, that's how we get into these issues where there's been a problem happening for years because we just assume that whoever created the rule or the assumption is correct. And if we have more curious people, it will stop some more of these issues from coming through. But yeah, I agree with you. Showing initiative. And I find this is a skill that is a bit wavering in the market at the moment, especially with some of the younger talent. I know you mentioned that yourself, that you sort of focus in on that sort of more younger talent.
But I think sometimes you have to actually teach them what initiative means. You know, when I give you a task, you know, here's the things that you can do inside that task instead of specifically what I've asked from you that will actually show initiative. You know, I've been given examples of where someone said that they were really exhausted because I felt like they had to really hand hold, you know, a bit more of a newer graduate into the role because they said, okay, I really need you to follow up with this person. Send them an email. The whole week goes by.
The manager themselves has to follow up with the person. Hey, did you get a hold of that person that I asked you to email? No, no response. Okay, did you follow up with another email? Did you try calling them? Is there another contact that we can get in touch with all of these questions which is very, you know, Showing these are all the initiative steps that, you know, you probably should have taken, but doesn't come sort of clearly to that person. And I guess, you know, we have to give, you know, bit of a benefit of the doubt as well.
You know, there's new to professional work and everything like that. But I think if people can really work on that initiative piece, it really does change your whole career trajectory.
Passing on payroll knowledge
James: I think that ties into what I was going to touch base on later today as well, is what I want to see change in the payroll industry. In recent years, I've called it the great exit to retirement. Because traditionally in an organisation you'll have one payroll processor, one individual in the organisation that is banned from taking leave because the organisation would fall apart without them. Yeah, but the issue that's occurred, and you've seen this with the rise of outsourced payroll companies, is that all that information sits with one individual.
There's not enough perceived resourcing to bring someone else on to fulfill that task. So what we really need to do better as a payroll industry is put that investment in younger individuals to be able to train this industry up. Now you can workshop that in different ways. You could have two part time employees covering the role and doing specific functions, or you could have individual days if you can't work the investment out.
But what we need to do is pass on that implied knowledge and ways of working and make sure that yes, systems are getting improved, yes, processes are getting refined, but you need to equip new people coming into the career with the knowledge of why we do certain things. Otherwise what'll happen is it will just worsen the more you go through and we'll have an old payroll experience workforce which will struggle, then replace and backfire.
Shawny: This has been a really big issue that I've discussed with people across the last maybe five years, especially since COVID I think has really tightened the market up. And a lot of the organisations that were sort of bringing in younger talent and training them up, which in my opinion there's never been enough of in payroll, has really dried up and slowed down everyone's focus, especially during COVID and post Covid was we need someone experienced. So there's been a lot of sort of payroll movement and sort of other issues surfacing as well.
With, you know, you were talking about, you know, there's one person in a small organisation, they know everything. If they leave then, you know, or they get seriously ill, anything like that, then all of that knowledge is gone. But big organisations with bigger teams Also have this issue because there is sometimes this fear or this ownership over the knowledge where one, you know, one excuse might be. It's just easier for them to do it themselves instead of having to teach someone else to do it.
You know, fear of losing their job or becoming redundant, having to change processes, you know, all of these things. So I think it's always laid into two factors for me and it's the current employees need to adapt and share the knowledge. It might be tough, it might feel like extra workload, it might feel, you might feel insecure about your own job. But this space is so particular that you can't just as a HR person start taking over the payroll person's job because they've up and left. It really needs that sort of significant handover.
And if you're doing that and doing that cross training, you know, proactively, it saves you and the business. And obviously, you know, even when it comes to reference checks, you know, of course someone's going to say something really highly of you if you've made sure that the notes and everything sort of align and the next person that can come in is, you know, well equipped to do the job. But yeah, the other factor is just new talent. You know, a lot of people fell into payroll.
There's not really been a strong career track in this industry where, you know, you go and do a certain study or certificate and then, and then you can sort of get into a sort of graduate program. So more of these opportunities in this junior space need to be, to be made.
The responsibility to develop others
James: I think other way tying into that is you hear about the, everyone gets promoted until they get into a role that they're no longer as performant as they were before. So all of these things that we're talking about, investment in individuals, training and development, they're what leaders need to step up and do. Now a lot of payroll processors are guns, absolutely perfect at getting their day-to-day out. But you see the same thing in the trades industry.
You're moved all the way up and you get given an apprentice, but you are not necessarily identified as wanting or needing to pass that knowledge because that can be quite a difficult task. Training someone is not easy. Developing someone is exactly that. It's investing in them, not only in the knowledge, but the time and passing on skills. So it's also about understanding that payroll individuals need to also be leaders in their space, which you can't do in a one person team.
That's why I've also seen the great, the great rise of the outsourced Payroll from a cost perspective and then the
Shawny: Knowledge perspective can be really tough for an organisation to just have, like you said, just one payroll employee because all the risk just lies with them. And when they're doing that outsourced, obviously there's, there's a backed team behind that. So yeah, it really does change the conversation sometimes. But yeah, it's, it's very, it's very interesting and you know, we could come up with all of these solutions, but I think changes, positive changes in this industry are definitely happening.
But it's one of those things that sometimes you just wish it was a little bit faster.
James: Talk about all the wonderful things that are going on in the industry. The refinement of awards starting to turn a little bit black and white from gray. The defining earning types for superannuation, really making the information clear. We're going to really good steps, but to make leaps, you need to push a little bit more and ask a little bit more.
Shawny: Agree. And I think it's always a bit of a tough ask because I think we can definitely do that. But it's one of those things that we've already pushed the industry a little bit to its limit. We've had, you know, obviously a lot of people retiring, sometimes retiring early because they're just, you know, exhausted by the amount of change and I guess industry pressure, obviously, you know, I know it's not sort of specifically the area that we're talking about, but my colleague was talking about how there's not really many accountants anymore.
You know, it used to be thousands and thousands of people going to study these courses of accounting or commerce, and now it's hundreds, which is really scary to see what our future looks like when the need is just rising exponentially for these roles. But there's not that talent there. And again, to think completely outside the box. Trades, industries and apprentices and all of that went through this already and they're sort of coming out to a little bit more of a positive track now.
But yeah, it is so interesting to see how the trends change on, on what people are actually looking for. You know, very rarely in my early career did I speak to someone who wasn't already working in payroll that was like, I want to get into payroll. You know, it's just something that you talk to people that were already sort of fallen into the industry anyway.
James: Yeah, payroll is just hours work times, hourly rate, take away whatever the tax payables say. Right, exactly.
Knowing where to find the answer
Shawny: It's so simple. Yeah. So I guess if we're moving on to Some of my last signature questions we have touched on a little bit about, you know, what kind of advice or what would you want someone to have told you in your early career? But is there anything really specific that someone has said to you in your career that you would want to pass on to someone else?
James: Absolutely. This has stuck with me since day dot shouting out Kelly Watts at McDonald's. She is the payroll manager and has been for quite some time because she absolutely rocks in a role. Her bit of advice was, James, I don't know everything. I just know who knows the information and if not, where to find the information. And that stuck out to me. And that's where my curiosity, my information gathering and structuring the team was really built out from. So the best piece of advice is you are not expected to know every intricate detail of every award.
Can you tell me exactly what section 24.1 of the SCHADS Award says? No, but you know where to look or you know who to talk to in your team to find that information. We're not memory banks and it's going to sound cringe. We are payroll problem solvers, not payroll processors. There's a system can automatically calculate all these things, but there's that human element. So that's the best piece of advice that I've ever gotten in my career.
Shawny: I feel like that was such a great starting point for you because it really changes the conversation and the perception of if I want to become an expert or if I want to become a senior or a manager, I need to know all these things. But it really changes it to be like you don't. You need to know how to find that information, who to talk to, who is going to know this information. Keep your own notes that are clearly laid out so you've got that information at your disposal.
But yeah, it really, for a lack of a better word, it takes the pressure off where you don't have to be this person that can recite the entire award to someone. You just need to be able to reference the right information.
James: And the payroll industry is all about decisions that need to be made based on not your advice. We try and steer away from advice, but your expertise in the area. Very rarely do payroll error free pays come from an environment where decisions are made last minute. You allow yourself the five minutes to say, bear with me, let me get the information for you. But take that moment, pause, get that information and get it correct. So like I said, you cannot guess in this role. You can make educated guesses, but they need to be backed with information and legislation.
Shawny: Yeah, 100%. It's not something that you can rush because it's a really important factor. Payroll people want to get it right, but as well as that, it's important to the people that are receiving their, their pay. We've got one more question, but I can't sneak in just another as well. But what do you think was the moment that you realised payroll was more than just a job?
Every pay packet belongs to a person
James: I thought I understood payroll back in my restaurant days at McDonald's. You've got your labour costs, you've got your systems that show you exactly how, what the breakdown and pays are. But when I started in the role in payroll and really looking at the names, I'm a people person rather than a numbers first person. So understanding that a payroll with, I think at the time it was, it was in the tens of thousands person, every single name was a person. And understanding that those people's pay are what drives them.
It may be you're paying someone in a remote community and in the Northern Territory, in remote communities, you have to top up your electricity meter. Every cent counts. So really understanding that people are not numbers and that each bit of pay goes somewhere and pays for something. And at the end of the day, the ATO go off what I report to them. If I incorrectly categorize something, someone's never going to get that tax back, all because of a simple error.
And hey, at the end of the day, that extra tax I've paid could have gone to Black Friday deal or food on the table.
Shawny: I agree with you. I think a lot of people, once they realise the almost satisfaction out of, you know, the job because you know, you're directly almost involved in these people's lives, you're making sure that they can, yeah, put food on the table, pay their bills, come to work and actually be productive and want to work there. Because I don't think many people would show up the next day or, you know, next week if they're not getting paid properly. Do you know what I mean? So, yeah, I agree.
The last kind of question that I wanted to sneak in was more around the payroll Perspectives podcast. And if there's any questions or topics that you'd love to sort of hear discussed in future episodes, I'd love to
James: Hear different stories of how things have changed over the time, but more so in terms of the awards that you've worked in and the different experiences, one thing I can say is I've worked across the board. I've processed payroll for satellite operators all the way to concreters. I want to understand the depth and the changes we've seen in the payroll industry just to show people there's so much going on and it's not hours, times hourly rate, less tax, there's more to it than that. And providing that there's so much more to it.
And none of that earlier conversation about investing in people takes away from the amazing work everyone is already doing. We have limited time and it's what we do with that time that really makes the difference.
Technology, AI and the next steps for payroll
Shawny: Yeah, I think that another area and topics that people sort of said they want to hear more on is how people are adapting and using AI. Obviously it's, it's big. Everyone's talking about AI but you know, actual specific examples of how they're changing or making their day better. Because yeah, I've spoken to some people and we're kind of going through a learning curve at the moment where I feel like all of this hard work's gonna pay off eventually and give us time back, but I feel like it's currently creating more work because it's so interesting, it's so new.
You're playing around with this, you're playing around with that. Saved myself, you know, 10 minutes or an hour here. But then you've spent that time investigating something else in AI or doing something else for your job. So even though it's, it's doing more for us, I can't, I can't see it affecting, you know, jobs to a degree that is detrimental to the industry, especially in payroll.
James: Payroll has a human element because there's always interpretation. Take award interpretation. A classic example is an afternoon shift. Do you consider the full shift the afternoon or only the part of the shift work between that? But I'd encourage us to look beyond the companies that are already exploring AI. There's over 2 million companies in Australia. The amount of organisations that I've helped support move from Excel timesheets onto a system is where we also need to focus on growth.
So AI is beautiful and really good for big companies that may have developers or AI to integrate that into the software. But we've also got a bit of a catch up game going from actual software that is dedicated to human resources and processing. We've got to help everyone who is still using Excel spreadsheets move onto dedicated systems and then we can start to move them along because there's still a huge gap.
Shawny: It's funny you say that because you're right. The gap is just getting bigger and bigger because of all these new things that are coming out, all of these changes. You know, obviously it's very hard to, you know, with all of the STP payday, super. All of this stuff being quite, you know, online and instant, it's very hard to be back in the stone ages where, you know, you're still getting paper timesheets, so. And we did a huge, huge overhaul in the industry, especially during COVID because a lot of businesses went remote working and stuff.
So I made a lot of businesses have to stop using some, some old school techniques and invest into systems, especially, you know, those health and not, not-for-profit clients. But at the same time, there's still businesses who need help moving into that first step, let alone into AI. So very good point that you brought up there.
James: Absolutely. Which is why I also love working in the space I'm working in, being able to provide that support and those opportunities.
Closing reflections
Shawny: Amazing. Well, look, I can't thank you enough for joining me for this podcast episode.
James: Yeah, thank you for having me. It's always good to go full circle from our first conversation where I was in bed with COVID to now this point in my career, really seeing how much more there is a payroll space and I've been in Victorian payroll for seven years now, long enough to qualify for long service leave. So it's only more information together. And I'll do that by being curious.
Shawny: Yeah, it's so amazing and honestly, I feel so privileged that I've been in this industry so long that I can say that, you know, I placed this person five years ago and I'm still in touch with them and I'm. One of the first people I ever placed is still working in that same job and loving it. You know, lots of these stories I can sort of share, but I just feel so lucky that, you know, we've got this connection from that first conversation and we're still in touch.
